This particular church in Petaluma is a very traditional Catholic church, or as one person commented, a "pre-Vatican II church". Throughout the building were statues of various saints, Mary and Joseph included, plus wall sculptures depicting the stations of the cross that started with the trial by Pilate and ended with Jesus being laid in the tomb. The altar area had other ornate artwork, including Christ on the Cross as you can see in this photo (the lighting was kind of tough in there):
I sent that second item after looking around the building a bit and realizing that although there was plenty of evidence that Christ died, I couldn't find any sign that he'd risen again. If I had no background in the Bible and walked in there and looked around, I don't think I'd realize that the grave was not the end.In a Petaluma church for a concert. Only 4th time I've been in a Catholic church in my life. I think the statues are watching me.
Based on what I saw tonight at the Catholic church Mary and Joseph are alive and well. Jesus, not so much. Doesn't look like he made it.
The whole praying to the saints doesn't make much sense to an evangelical either, not to mention the veneration of Mary and Joseph, two regular folks who were chosen for a very special job but were not in and of themselves deities. There's some stuff there that almost smacks of idolatry.
Maybe a Catholic reader can explain all that for me.
Posts
5 comments:
I'm not Catholic, I'm a (conservative) Episcopalian who grew up evangelical, but I've studied Catholicism at length -- so I think I understand where you're coming from as an evangelical but also have an understanding of the Catholic POV, and I speak as someone "in the middle" (grin).
"Praying to saints" is a misconception, to an extent, at least as far as official doctrine. The concept is that all Christians, living and dead, are in the Communion of Saints. We're either Christians here on earth or we're in Heaven. Just as we ask our fellow Christians here on earth to pray for and with us, the Catholic belief is that we can ask our fellow Christians in Heaven to pray for us as well. You are asking them to pray along with you to the Trinity, not praying *to* them as though they have godlike powers themselves, which would be very wrong. (It also doesn't help that even some ill-informed Catholics talk about praying to saints as though the saints can do something for you themselves.)
The part I still am not sure about is -- if you are asking fellow Christians in Heaven to pray for you and with you, can you actually communicate with them via prayer to ask for their prayers? To me as a Protestant prayer seems like something reserved for talking to God.
As far as veneration -- people such as Mary and Joseph were very special to God, so they are special to us -- examples of great Christians whom we should admire. Some people do take this to extremes but at the same time I think there can be misconceptions.
I think it's true that Roman Catholic art tends to focus more heavily on the sacrifice of the crucifixion, while Protestant churches lean more toward the empty cross, symbolizing the resurrection. Rather than looking at it as though the art isn't acknowledging the resurrection, I think the crucifixion art is trying to express the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice for us; it's not really my preferred style for religious art, but I think there's another approach to interpreting it. I grew up myself being cautioned about the lack of emphasis on the resurrection in Catholic art, yet as an adult I have come to feel the whole message of this art is "Christ died for you, for your sins." The resurrection is implicit in that sacrifice.
If you attend an actual Mass, you will find that the words of the liturgy and hymns -- just as in the Anglican/Episcopalian liturgy -- all reaffirm the resurrection over and over again. As the Congregation recites before Holy Communion: "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again" -- words any Protestant would be happy to echo.
I highly recommend books by Thomas Howard, who traces his journey from evangelical to liturgical (Anglican) to Roman Catholic. They are well thought out and elegantly written and address theological issues from the perspective of questioning evangelicals. You may/will not agree with all his conclusions, but they answer a lot of questions, explaining liturgical worship and Catholicism and answering questions common to evangelicals. His titles include EVANGELICAL IS NOT ENOUGH, LEAD KINDLY LIGHT and ON BEING CATHOLIC.
Hope this is of interest and provides a little more insight.
Best wishes,
Laura
Well said, Laura. I was mostly Presbyterian before I decided I didn't need organized religion (I still don't think I need it for salvation, but it does provide for some other stuff and since my wife is an Episcopal Deacon I belong to a parish here).
My understanding is much the same as yours, and I did look into Roman Catholicism at one point years ago when I thought I was madly in love with a girl that was RC.
And I refrain from poking at the details--I've been to several flavors of Baptist, AG, 4-Square Gospel, listened to Gene Scott, and on for another dozen or so names (including dated a Jewish girl for a while).
Each has practices that are difficult to explain, sometimes to other participants.
It comes down to: Have you taken the one step required for salvation?
If you have, the rest doesn't much matter. If you haven't the rest won't do any good..
I echo Larry when I say "well said" Laura.
I was raised Roman Catholic, but went Evangelical when I was 18 years old. Several decades later I went looking again for something with more depth and respect for church history.
I missed the traditions and art that are reminders of what has been done for us: Holy Communion, Lent, Advent, just to name a few. I joined an Anglican Catholic church. Any differences between Evangelicals and traditional Christians are more of a misunderstanding than anything else.
Hi Rick,
I used to be a Protestant. Now I'm a Catholic, so I could help with a couple of your questions, but as always, there's so much deeper we could go.
Why the crucifix? I think it's a myth that Catholics don't focus on the resurrection, but regardless, we never want to lose sight of what Jesus did for us - and what he calls us to imitate (though not literally hopefully). Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:2 "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." Jesus Christ and him crucified - that's what a crucifix is all about.
Think of statues of saints as a "hall of fame" - or as some people call Hebrews 11, a "hall of faith." If you go to the Capital in Washington DC, you're going to see statues of the Presidents. Why? Because we revere them. We don't worship them. But we look up to them, and rightfully so - just so with saints - they're our elder brothers and sisters in the faith.
Why pray to saints? You're not going to find a Bible verse that addresses this explicitly (though there's a verse in Revelation that comes pretty close, if I had more time), but you are going to find an ancient tradition going back to the first century, of seeing those who have "died in Christ" as being still alive. And there's something else you're NOT going to find. If this was a bizarre contradiction of Christian teaching, we would expect to find early Christian leaders saying "hey! wait a minute! Don't pray to that saint! That's idolatry!" We find no such thing, which leads me to believe this is an early teaching that goes straight back to apostolic times. The doctrine which DOESN'T go back to apostolic times is "sola scriptura" - the idea that if it's not explicitly in the Bible, it's NOT to be believed. Sola Scriptura came around 1500 years later.
I would echo Laura in strongly recommending Thomas Howard. Start with a speech he gave at Gordon College. It doesn't deal with saints, statues, or architecture, but it's a very clear presentation of the sacramental worldview, which is very different from most of modern evangelicalism. You can find it here:
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/thoward_cathspirit_mar07.asp
Kudos for asking great questions, rather than just passing over your experience in silence.
Somehow the link didn't work - let me try again:
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/thoward_cathspirit_mar07.asp
Post a Comment